jstinemire
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Location: Pasadena, MD
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![[*]](./images/corporate/default_icon.gif) posted on 5-8-08 at 12:57 AM |
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Bucket test contention! Input needed!
Hello all! In one of the other threads there has been some recent debate going on and, since it really was off-topic there, I'm opening this up as a
new thread.
The contention is with the accuracy of the bucket test in the event of rain. The only reason I even addressed this in the first place is because of
the following series of events:
1. Customer calls LD, convinced he has a leak in a new liner after substantial wintertime loss.
2. Customer is convinced enough that he is willing to pay LD to find/confirm leak.
3. Customer has done no extensive testing of pool himself (pressure test, bucket test, etc), just observation.
4. LD goes out to pool and dives on pool (No LeakTrac scan) and does not find a leak.
5. Customer is still convinced that the pool is losing water somewhere.
6. LD sets up a bucket test to "prove to him there is no leak"
7. It rains during the night of the bucket test.
8. Customer calls to tell LD that the bucket level increased by 1/2" while the pool remained the same, proving that there is water loss somewhere in
the pool.
9. The LD feels as though there is no leak and that the customer is wrong to believe that "he has a liner leak because the pool, even though the
level remained the same, was lower than the bucket".
This Leak Detector is of the opinion that rain causes a bucket test to be inconclusive.
What are your thoughts and experiences? Input from the group would be greatly appreciated!
NOTE: Please keep in mind my purpose behind this thread...it is not meant to attack any individual There are many folks, old
and new, who lurk through these threads trying to learn how to best do leak detection. If there is information in a thread that is possibly wrong. it
has the potential to affect many more folks than just the few pros who frequently post here.
~~John~~
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ALD
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| posted on 5-8-08 at 06:42 AM |
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Rain does not generally negate a bucket test.
The only 3 scenarios that I can think of off the top of my head where rain could negate a bucket test are:
1) The bucket is under an awning, etc. The bucket is placed on the 1st step of the pool for the bucket test - which keeps the water
in the bucket at roughly the same temperature as the pool. If that 1st step is under an overhang from a porch or a sun-shelf that has an umbrella on
it, the bucket test is ruined if it rains because the bucket has been protected from the rain and the entire pool has not.
2) The bucket is filled too high. If the bucket is filled 1/2" from the top and it rains more than 1/2" at any time during the
test, your test is ruined. The bucket will overflow, negating the test.
3) A very, very windy rain. If the rain is coming into the bucket at too sharp of an angle, only a very small portion of the rain
will enter the bucket, relative to the surface area of the bucket. Therefore, the pool gets a proper rise in water level in accordance with the
relative rain and the bucket does not.
Other than those three pretty uncommon scenarios, a bucket test is not rendered inconclusive by rain.
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jstinemire
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| posted on 5-8-08 at 10:38 AM |
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That was my feeling, especially if the Leak Detection Professional set it up himself. With a homeowner setup unseen by the pro, it's possible that
there could be negating issues. But if the LD sets it up himself or clearly explains to the homeowner what to do in detail then those issues should
be avoidable.
BTW, good point about the overfilling issue, too!  That's something
that's been in the back of my mind for a while, but now that you've mentioned it I will modify my instructions to the homeowner for the 48 hr bucket
test setup prior to my appointment with them.
"Be sure to keep the water level several inches from the top of the bucket." Just in case....
Now dogs can really throw off a bucket test!
~~John~~
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Lance
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| posted on 6-8-08 at 08:42 AM |
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Another scenarion where rain could effect the results of the bucket test would be if the pool receives run-off from the deck (poor design), the pool
would appear to lose less (gain more) than the bucket. This, like the other scenarios ALD mentioned, would tend to mask or hide an actual leak rather
than indicate one that wasn't actually there.
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ALD
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| posted on 9-8-08 at 11:56 AM |
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I've had 2 situations where customers have a dog on the back porch that drank from the bucket causing the bucket to drop more than the pool.
I also had a customer who kept seeing dirt on his steps near the jet. He assumed dirt was blowing in from a plumbing break and hired us to do a
plumbing pressure test on the jets. It held fine. He would clean up the dirt every day and every day when he came home from work, more dirt was in
the pool. He finally set up a webcam and found his neighbor's dog getting in and out of his pool around noon every day. The dog would go roll in
the dirt and when he got hot he would come back over and hop in the pool. No leak - just a dirty dog. After watching the video he also realized why
his deck was always so dirty.
Keep the dogs away from the bucket tests!
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hap
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Location: happeninghap@gmail.com
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| posted on 11-8-08 at 01:50 PM |
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I find sometimes bucket tests are inconclusive. I did a little experiment this weekend on an unoccupied home with a leaking pool. Ran two identical 24
hour tests and had results varying by 1/2" of water loss. First test had 1/4" loss. Next one was almost one inch of loss. It's not logical but it
did happen.
It's important to gather as much info as possible to make a final determination of any leak. That includes visual, logical, and electronic info.
I still trust 24 hour bucket tests more that any other loss test except seeing dye rushing out a hole.
hap
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reedpool
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| posted on 11-8-08 at 02:02 PM |
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So does that mean you dont trust thr Leakalyzer?
Rob
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hap
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| posted on 13-8-08 at 08:22 PM |
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I trust it pretty well. Many times I will retest and retest to be sure the cell is not warming up or cooling off. It does at times give a test that,
for no reason that I can figure, is way off. I find that it's off when I first put the cell in the water. It settles down in a few minutes and works
great. A common trait I see with it, is when I first submerge the cell, it's temp is settling in or it's just freaking out with wild positive and
negative numbers. When it does freak out it's usually going to negative numbers (up on the graph). It will go to -99 and peg out. I restart the test
1 to 3 times and it starts working fine. I know you folks have heard me say this in the past..... not much is definite looking for and testing for
leaks. The Leakalyzer is not perfect. You can not always trust hook plugs to not leak underwater. The very nature of finding leaks is to be suspicious
about everything. I like the Leakalyzer and you can not have mine. It's a great tool just like several others on my truck that I do not totally
trust.
The "you can not have mine" line is not directed at anyone. I've refused two offers to buy it(SN#0001) from me at full retail.
hap
| Quote: | Originally posted by reedpool
So does that mean you dont trust thr Leakalyzer?
Rob |
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hap
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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| posted on 13-8-08 at 08:46 PM |
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I did a 24 hour bucket test last night after knowing that I did not need to do a 24 hour test because the Leakalyzer said this pool is leaking fast
out the structure somewhere. I left the job a little frustrated after looking for 3.5 hours. Some times I just need to sleep on it for a night. I
showed back up this morning and found it in 10 minutes. The moral of this story is "Never will I stop using a bucket test". It just works too
good.
I don't think rain makes much difference in a bucket test under typical conditions. Usually rain is consistent in an area as small as a pool.
That's my logic and I'm sticking to it until the government says I must be otherwise.
hap
| Quote: | Originally posted by jstinemire
Hello all! In one of the other threads there has been some recent debate going on and, since it really was off-topic there, I'm opening this up as a
new thread.
The contention is with the accuracy of the bucket test in the event of rain. The only reason I even addressed this in the first place is because of
the following series of events:
1. Customer calls LD, convinced he has a leak in a new liner after substantial wintertime loss.
2. Customer is convinced enough that he is willing to pay LD to find/confirm leak.
3. Customer has done no extensive testing of pool himself (pressure test, bucket test, etc), just observation.
4. LD goes out to pool and dives on pool (No LeakTrac scan) and does not find a leak.
5. Customer is still convinced that the pool is losing water somewhere.
6. LD sets up a bucket test to "prove to him there is no leak"
7. It rains during the night of the bucket test.
8. Customer calls to tell LD that the bucket level increased by 1/2" while the pool remained the same, proving that there is water loss somewhere in
the pool.
9. The LD feels as though there is no leak and that the customer is wrong to believe that "he has a liner leak because the pool, even though the
level remained the same, was lower than the bucket".
This Leak Detector is of the opinion that rain causes a bucket test to be inconclusive.
What are your thoughts and experiences? Input from the group would be greatly appreciated!
NOTE: Please keep in mind my purpose behind this thread...it is not meant to attack any individual There are many folks, old
and new, who lurk through these threads trying to learn how to best do leak detection. If there is information in a thread that is possibly wrong. it
has the potential to affect many more folks than just the few pros who frequently post here.
~~John~~ |
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